Legislature(1995 - 1996)
05/09/1996 02:07 PM Senate L&C
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
JOINT SENATE AND HOUSE LABOR & COMMERCE
STANDING COMMITTEE
May 9, 1996
2:07 p.m.
SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Tim Kelly, Chair
Senator John Torgerson, Vice Chair
SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Jim Duncan
Senator Judy Salo
HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Pete Kott, Chair
Representative Norman Rokeberg, Vice Chair
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Jerry Sanders
Representative Beverly Masek
Representative Kim Elton
HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Gene Kubina
ALSO IN ATTENDANCE
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Robin Taylor
Representative Gail Phillips, Speaker of the House
Representative Bill Williams
Representative Caren Robinson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
- MARINE HIGHWAY LABOR CONTRACTS; SERVICE DISRUPTION OF MAY 8
WITNESS REGISTER
GARY HAYDEN, Director
Marine Highway System
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898
Telephone: (907) 465-8827
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented an overview of the Marine Highway
System and the service disruption of May 8
JANET PARKER, Deputy Director
Division of Retirement & Benefits
Department of Administration
P.O. Box 110203
Juneau, alaska 99811-0203
Telephone: (907) 465-4470
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained PERS Retirement System
MIA DOYLE
Labor Relations Section
Department of Administration
P.O. Box 110220
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0220
Telephone: (907) 465-4404
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained audit completed by the Office
of Management and Budget
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-44, SIDE A
Number 001
The Joint Meeting of the Senate and House Labor & Commerce
Committees was called to order by Chairman Tim Kelly at 2:07 p.m.
Due to a tape machine malfunction, Chairman Kelly briefly recessed
the meeting.
CHAIRMAN KELLY called the meeting back to order and noted that each
committee member had before them a copy of the Research Report,
Alaska Marine Highway System, Comparative Compensation Analysis
prepared by the Office of Management and Budget, dated October
1994. Chairman Kelly asked Gary Hayden to begin his statement.
Number 026
GARY HAYDEN, Director, Marine Transportation System, Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities, prefaced his statement by
saying the Alaska Marine Highway System, he and his staff would
like to cooperate fully with the committee. He noted that he has
a tendency to be somewhat factual and short and doesn't give long
explanations. He asked committee members not to misconstrue that
other than maybe a bit of cautiousness on his part, and invited
questions from the committee.
[THE BALANCE OF THE MEETING WAS TRANSCRIBED VERBATIM]
MR. HAYDEN:
To begin, yesterday at approximately 12:40, the Port Captain
notified me that he had a problem with filling out the crew on the
Malaspina. The Malaspina was scheduled to leave Auke Bay at 11:45,
so at that point it was delayed approximately one hour. The
Malaspina was scheduled to go from Auke Bay to Haines. It had 146
passengers on board, they had 81 vehicles and they had a crew of 47
people. At 11:30, the captain of the vessel called the port
captain and reported that five employees had just walked off the
vessel reporting that they were sick and it appeared to him that it
was a work walk-out. We proceeded to try to fill out the
complement of crew. In this particular instance, manning the ship
is dictated primarily by our Coast Guard license. On the
Malaspina, we are required to have 26 employees with lifeboat
certificates and in addition to that, our certificate requires that
there be a complement of other designated crewmen. And of those,
there are to be four able-bodied seamen, one chief engineer, two
assistant engineers and two oilers. At the time that the employees
became ill and left the vessel, we were short two able-bodied
seamen, one junior engineer and two oilers. We upgraded people
from the Stewards Department who could meet the requirements, who
had a card to be able-bodied seamen. So, we solved the two able-
bodied seamen requirement and brought the complement back up to
four. However, that left us short in the engineering in that we
had to find oilers. An oiler is an endorsement that's on the
employee's Z-Card that he gets from the Coast Guard saying that he
is qualified to act as an oiler or work in the oiler capacity. We
-- our dispatch group - there are three employees who work dispatch
- as it turned out this was just about the lunch hour, so we had to
track them down, put people to work and we found an oiler who had
just come in and applied for a job, so we hired one person right
off the street, took him out of class at Centennial Hall and drove
him to Auke Bay. The other oiler we contacted, found he was ready
to go to work lives in Haines, we may have contacted him about
12:45, almost 1:00. The person caught the next available flight
from Haines. We picked him up at the airport and drove him out to
the ship. Then we were still hunting for a junior engineer at that
point. We found one who could act as a relief on the Malaspina,
had previously worked on the Malaspina, and we dispatched that
person to the ship. In effect, within several hours we were able
to round up enough crew and the vessel left Auke Bay, heading
north, at approximately 3:40. So, we had almost a four hour delay
in the sailing of the vessel.
Number 074
MR. HAYDEN:
At that point, we began trying -- our number 1 mission at that
point was to get the vessel underway, get the crew complement going
and then figure out what happened after that. So after that, we
began assembling an investigation. We asked -- one of the first
questions asked was: Was this related to legislative action or the
latest legislation inaction of the previous day? And all
indications were people were not saying that it was directly
related; however, it was very unusual that we had five employees
get off the vessel 15 minutes before sailing. Two of the employees
reported back pains; three of the employees report flu-like
symptoms. Two of the employees had been on the vessel since 10:30
- we had a crew change that day and the other three employees had
been on for about a day and they got on in Ketchikan the previous
day. We checked and the employees had filled out an unfit for duty
slip and turned it in to the purser. They followed the proper
procedure that they were to do on the walking off the vessel. We
have a procedure at Marine Highways that if a vessel is -- if an
employee is sick, they are to get an unfit for duty slip from a
doctor. I have not seen those at this point from these employees.
We'll be asking them to give us that. Because of the unusual
sequence of events and the significant delaying of the vessel, the
inconvenience to the public and just the circumstances surrounding
this, we chose yesterday afternoon to put the employees on leave
without pay, pending an investigation. We sent them a letter which
they should have received today and gave a copy to the union today,
stated the reasons why and we also laid out what the process would
be for the investigation, reiterated some of the employees' rights
under the personnel rules for participation in the investigation
and any subsequent progressive disciplinary action. So that
brought us to today. This morning we put together an
investigation team and I believe -- I haven't had a chance to speak
with Mr. Cummings yet, but I believe we began our investigation
this morning. We intended to -- three of the employees flew back
to Ketchikan yesterday, so we'll be traveling to Ketchikan tomorrow
afternoon to interview those people.
Number 120
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Questions? Representative Porter.
Number 122
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In looking at the IBU labor
agreements, there's a provision that -- I'm taking it a little bit
out of context, but it basically provides grounds for immediate
discharge, leaving the vessel without being properly relieved or
without permission. Were these employees IBU members or were
they...
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes, they were all IBU members.
Number 130
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER:
If the investigation establishes that this was a work stoppage
as opposed to five illnesses, would you interpret that provision to
mean that these employees would be discharged?
MR. HAYDEN:
That's definitely one of the options for the progressive
disciplinary action. In our letter to the employees that was
carbon copied to the union, we set out three reasons for our
suspension and I believe each one of those were supported.
However, under the terms of that contract, I believe that the
employees at the time that they filled out the unfit for duty slip
followed the procedure that was laid out on the ship. Now it's a
matter of whether or not that was an accurate statement, whether or
not the employees were sick or whether or not they walked off.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER:
Well one of the other provisions, again under -- shall be
grounds for immediate discharge is falsifying records. If the
investigation determines that this wasn't an illness but was a work
stoppage, wouldn't that be falsifying records?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes sir, it sure would.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Any questions about that particular incident?
Number 149
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT:
Mr. Chairman -- Gary, you mentioned these five individuals
were placed on administrative leave without pay.
MR. HAYDEN:
That's correct.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Do they have available as an option to file an annual leave or
a sick leave slip that would in fact make them whole?
MR. HAYDEN:
No, they do not. Not under the suspension that we gave them.
One of the employees did come into the office yesterday and filed
for a draw on previously earned wages from a voyage that had
already been taken place that he hadn't been paid for and we paid
him $450.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, how much did these five employees make last year, for
example, in 1995?
MR. HAYDEN:
Okay, let me flip through some paper here. I just ran some
numbers hurriedly this morning and I can give you -- I'll just call
them ABs for able-bodied seamen, employee A, B, C, D. Employee A,
who was an able-bodied seaman received compensation of $48,254 and
I figure a benefit package of 37.1 percent; that would bring that
employee up to $66,156. The able-bodied seamen position B earned
$30,968, with benefits is $42,458. The oiler position was $42,601
and with benefits $58,405. The oiler employee D earned $42,132 and
with benefits $57,763. The oiler employee E received $25,489 and
with benefits that comes to $34,946.
Number 183
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, were these employees employed
year-round last year? The numbers that you are conveying to us,
there seems to be some substantial difference in some of them. I'm
just wondering if they were employed all year.
MR. HAYDEN:
Employee A worked 1,256 hours; Employee B, 1,416; C was 1,838;
D was 1,844; and E was 1,084. So it would appear that they had
worked most of the year. Differences come from the type of pay
that they receive....
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Thirty-two weeks.
MR. HAYDEN:
There's regular time, there's overtime, vacation, sick,
there's holidays with two classifications of holiday pay - regular
pay and overtime - there's early callback, there's minimum
guarantees, there's unearned wages, there's split wages, there's
travel, and I'll go into those compensation packages, plus uniform
allowance.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Before we do that - Senator Leman.
Number 205
SENATOR LOREN LEMAN:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, under normal spread of hours,
I think full time employment is 2,088 hours for a year and none of
these were at that. What is considered full time employment for
the Marine Highway System for these type of employees? How many
hours a year would be considered full time?
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator Leman, I don't have a general number on that. Each
contract -- to back up three steps. There are seven unions that
the Marine Highway System operates with; four of those are on
shore, three of them are on the ships. On the ships, each contract
is unique and different and has different rates. Some people in
the Southeast work a week on and a week off and the people in
Southwest work a month on and a month off or they may work four
months on, four months off and leave accruals are different.
There's a two-tiered leave accrual rate for employees hired after
a certain date, so it's difficult for me to generalize as to what
the annual number of hours for a full time employee is. I think
we'd almost have to look at positions either in Southeast or in the
Southwest.
SENATOR LEMAN:
In your opinion, would any of these be full time employees?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes.
SENATOR LEMAN:
Especially the ones who are at 1,800 hours?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Chairman Kott.
Number 225
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, were any of these individuals
involved in this incident non-Alaskans?
MR. HAYDEN:
It's my understanding that one of the people had a Bellingham
mailing address; however, I do have a contact for that person here
in Juneau. So, one of the employees, I learned this morning, I
guess I have a question as to whether he's an Alaskan resident or
Bellingham resident.
Number 231
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, what about an oversight of the wage and salary
structure, and vacation and benefit policies in the Alaska ferry
system.
MR. HAYDEN:
Would you like an overview of that? Okay. Can I invite Bruce
Cummings to the table with me? As I said it's going to vary
depending on which union you want to talk about -- IBU contract?
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Well, I guess all the union contracts on the ferry system.
Did you bring a list of the amount of money made by each person in
the ferry system last year?
MR. HAYDEN:
We paid out $50 million plus in personal service costs on the
Marine Highway System of which about 11 was on shore, so vessel
employees earned approximately $39 million in wages.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
What are your highest employees and what kind of money do they
make? What did your top five employees make last year?
MR. HAYDEN:
I have a run of average cost by position and I can give you --
let's talk about average cost by position and then I can go look at
another spreadsheet that's a run by employees. The average
earnings of a master was $90,000 plus there's some overtime in
addition to that. I roughly looked at a run of overtime and took
average full time equivalents who were getting paid overtime and
came up with about $99,000 for an average of a master. Now that
varies all the way down to a -- let's see, it looks like a mess
steward would be the lowest employee in the IBU - average earnings
there were $44,883 and overtime of another - $9,655 for overtime
average for a mess steward.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
Is that fully loaded with benefits?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes, that includes benefits
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Senator Torgerson.
SENATOR JOHN TORGERSON:
That was my question.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
And the COLD, too?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes.
Number 268
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Then the range of onboard ferry workers is between $52,000 and
$99,000?
MR. HAYDEN:
On an average. When we go look at individual different
employees that number definitely changes. There are people out
there making a lot less than what the average I quoted you was.
There are people who are working seasonally who make less than
$25,000.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Representative Rokeberg.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sir, could you - with those two top
ranges, could we go back to Senator Leman's question regarding the
number of hours for those two positions then?
MR. HAYDEN:
I had 33,590 hours worked by masters, approximately 15.4
people working that, so that's 2,181 hours for a master, excluding
the overtime. Masters only receive overtime when they are in the
shipyard. They receive other compensation - nonwatch pay in terms
of the contract. In the Stewards Department, there were 168,386
hours worked by 77 employees, so that's again 21,886.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
I'm having a little trouble reconciling these numbers because
the five folks that were involved in that incident yesterday were
all making in the 40s and yet you're saying the lowest paid job is
$44,080 plus $9,000 overtime, so I'm having trouble reconciling in
my mind.
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator, the numbers that I just gave you between the 99 and
59 are averaged of all the hours worked and the salaries paid out.
So that's an average, that's not a spread. That's an average of
the numbers. And then the numbers for the employees were the
actual I pointed out. Let me look to see if I brought my
spreadsheet that had all of the employee's compensation for
everybody - which I don't think that I did -- I didn't bring the
information that has all of the employees' wages and...
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
So is it a fair statement to say that the jobs on board the
Alaska Ferry Highway System pay between $59,000 and $99,000 a year?
MR. HAYDEN:
No, sir. They pay between $25,000 and $109,000 depending on
what position....
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
$25,000 to $99,000.
MR. HAYDEN:
$109,000.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
$109,000.
MR. HAYDEN:
Some masters make more than what this average I quoted you
was.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Who only gets $25,000 a year full time?
MR. HAYDEN:
Oh, those full time equivalents? Those are people who are
working seasonal jobs, not full time working year-round.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Full time, year-round jobs - what's the range?
MR. HAYDEN:
Okay, probably $35,000 to a high range of $110,000.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER:
$110,000?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, let's talk about shifts for your various workers. How
are they scheduled, how do they work, that type of thing?
MR. HAYDEN:
Okay, a junior engineer works - 12 hours is one day's
worth of work. They stand watch and watch is divided up into 6
hours on and then 6 hours off. So, within a 24-hour day, they work
12 hours. They work that for 7 consecutive days. They work a
minimum of 84 hours. So, a week's worth of work is 7-12 hour days.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Are they paid hourly or do they get overtime after....
MR. HAYDEN:
They are paid hourly and they receive overtime after 84 hours.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
After 84 hours.
MR. HAYDEN:
After 84 hours - or excuse me, or if they get -- work more
than 12 hours within one 24-hour period, then they get overtime for
that. If they're off of watch, like an AB is off his 6 hours and
gets called out to tie up the vessel, he gets a minimum call out of
2 hours.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, so they work a week and they're off a week. On the week
that they're working, they're on board the ships 24 hours a day.
MR. HAYDEN:
That's correct.
Number 330
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Do they pay room and board? Do they pay for their own meals
or how is that handled?
MR. HAYDEN:
No sir, under the Jones Act, mariners are to receive food -
we're to feed them. I looked up last summer when we were having
these discussions and we're to provide them a minimum of 2,000
calories a day. It's spelled out in federal law. So no, the
employee does not pay for that; the Marine Highway System provides
room and board.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Vacation. How much vacation time do they get and do they have
also sick leave separate from vacation?
MR. HAYDEN:
There's a two-tiered system. Let's just talk about IBU
employees (indisc.-paper shuffling). Okay, for employees who are
under the most recent schedule, it varies by the years of service.
For the employee who has one to two years, they get 84 hours...
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
I'm sorry, Gary, they get how many?
MR. HAYDEN:
They get 84 hours, so they get one week of annual leave. That
varies up to -- there's a step of 2 to 3; 3 to 4; 4 to 5; and then
5 or more. Those employees who receive five or more years of
service - of continuous service - would receive 420 hours, which is
equivalent to 5 weeks. Now, those employees who were hired prior
to April 1, 1985, have a different scale. It starts off with the
employee working 1 to 2 at 84 hours, progresses all the way to 10
on yearly increments, and once it's at 10 or more, they receive 588
hours which is equivalent to 7 weeks.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
So, if you've worked for the ferry system for about 11 years,
you get how many weeks after 10 years?
MR. HAYDEN:
If you went to work prior to 1985, you receive 7 weeks of
annual leave. If you were hired after that, you receive 5 weeks of
annual leave.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay. How is your sick leave structured?
MR. HAYDEN:
IBU employees receive 15 hours a month of sick leave, so
that's just a little over a day. Mr. Cummings pointed out to me
that's a day and a quarter which is comparable to shore side
employee accruals in the other bargaining units.
Number 364
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
How does that work in the real world out there -- somebody
gets sick on board, do they just miss a shift or....
MR. HAYDEN:
That has recently changed. In January of this year we had an
arbitrator's decision that said that the employee received unearned
wages and we were not entitled to dock his sick leave. Prior to
that, we had been -- when an employee became ill and was unable to
complete the 84 hours - the voyage - and they walked off the ship
due to illness - we put them off - we had been charging their sick
leave bank and making that 84-hour week whole. However, we had an
arbitrator's decision in January that said that we were doing it
incorrectly in that we could not charge their sick leave; that we
had to pay them for the rest of the voyage. So currently you can
become ill on the ship and you get a minimum guarantee of 84 hours.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, what about retirement systems for the.... Are all those
contracts the same concerning leave?
MR. HAYDEN:
No, there's different leave scales for the different unions.
They're fairly comparable to each other but there's a different
twist in each one.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Pension plans.
MR. HAYDEN:
Marine Engineers Beneficial Association (MEBA) have their own
pension plan that's part of their national organization.
Inlandboatmen's Union of the Pacific (IBU) and Masters, Mates and
Pilots (MMP) are on the state retirement system.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Is that the PERS system?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
How much do we contribute to the MEBA system - the equivalent
of what we contribute to the state system? Or is it more, is it
less?
MR. HAYDEN:
I don't know the answer to that - can you give me a second.
Under Rule 28 - 2802, the state pays $6.50 per day worked towards
their retirement.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Pardon me, I missed that.
MR. HAYDEN:
Six dollars and fifty cents a day which is less, I believe,
than the PERS contribution.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
And under the PERS system, what is a normal retirement under
the PERS system that they are authorized to have? Maybe you can
explain the PERS system for us very briefly.
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator, I don't believe I'm qualified to explain the PERS
retirement system.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Is Janet here?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Janet, will you join us please and explain the PERS system to
those who might not be aware of what's in it.
Number 398
JANET PARKER, Deputy Director, Division of Retirement & Benefits,
Department of Administration:
Under the PERS system, there are two tiers - tier one and tier
two currently. Members of the IBU and MMP would be in either one
of those tiers. The normal retirement for tier one is at age 55 or
at any age with 30 years of service, but service for IBU started in
1983 and service for Masters, Mates and Pilots didn't start until
1986, so no one would fall under those rules. Their early
retirement would be at age 50 in tier one, their benefit formula is
the same in both tiers - it's 2 percent for the first 10 years, 2
1/4 percent for the second 10 years, and 2 l/2 percent for all
years over 20.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
And those are percentages of what?
MS. PARKER:
Of their average monthly compensation. So we would average
their three high years. In tier one, major medical insurance is
provided free of charge to all retirees and their dependents. In
both tiers, vesting is at five years. In tier one, all retirees
receive a cost of living allowance when they are residing within
the state and that's equal to 10 percent of your benefit or $50,
whichever is greater. We also grant post-retirement pension
adjustments in tier one. They have a choice -- they don't have a
choice, we calculate ad hoc if it's being granted, which is a 4
percent compounded or they have the choice of an automatic PRPA
which is granted based upon the Consumer Price Index (CPI) change
in the prior year.
Number 420
MS. PARKER:
In tier two, normal retirement age shifts from 55 to age 60.
The early retirement also shifts up from 50 to 55. With major
medical insurance, the retirement system only provides coverage to
disabilitants and retirees over the age of 65. If you are under
the age of 65 but over 60, the retirement system will pay one-half
the premium and you have to pay the other half. If you are under
the age of 60, you have to pay the full premium if you want to have
insurance. The cost of living allowance for tier two -- that's the
allowance you get for living within the state of Alaska, is only
available in tier two to disabilitants and retirees 65 or older.
The calculation for the automatic PRPA is 75 percent of the CPI in
the prior year for people who are disabled and those who are 65 and
over. If you are under 65 but over 60, you receive 50 percent of
the CPI and you also receive that if you've been retired for five
or more years. And those are the difference between the two
systems. Everything else is the same.
Number 433
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, the salary ranges in the Marine Highway System range
between $35,000 and $110,000 a year, so let's take something in the
middle. What would somebody that was making $75,000 a year, that
worked 25 years receive in terms of a retirement?
MS. PARKER:
How long had they worked?
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Twenty-five years.
MS. PARKER:
Twenty-five years. Three thousand, one hundred, twenty five
dollars and I'm assuming that only because most of them have come
into the system since 1986 and the multiplier is only applied to
service earned after 1986. So...
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Is that a tier one benefit or a tier two benefit you just
calculated?
MS. PARKER:
It's both. Tier one and tier two have the same benefit
formula.
Number 448
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Any other questions about the PERS system? Thank you, Janet.
Appreciate you being here.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, we've got an audit here done by the Office of Management
& Budget (OMB) and in it, it says that the Alaska Marine Highway
employees are paid more than employees of the Canadian ferry system
and the Washington ferry system -- considerable more. How do we
justify that?
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator, I have not read that document. I'd like to call to
the table a representative from the Department of Administration
which I believe was involved in that....
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay.
Number 453
MIA DOYLE, Labor Relations, Department of Administration:
I know a little about it, Senator. The document that you're
referring to was actually created during the Hickel Administration
by somebody working in the Office of Management & Budget who did a
salary survey of the various ferry systems and tried as accurately
as possible to compare the systems. There's a number of
difficulties involved because of the difference in working
conditions, the difference between Canadian and American dollars,
the difference between their retirement and health benefits, et
cetera. I think that that individual tried to make adjustments for
that and those are certainly reflected in this document. I think
it's fair to say or to let you know, that we have discussed this at
the bargaining table and the unions all disagree with the
conclusions. I think the document speaks for itself regarding its
-- its application that's another matter.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, something occurred to me. The supplemental benefit
system, do state ferry workers partake in that program?
MR. HAYDEN:
SBS? Yes, they do.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
All of them?
MR. HAYDEN:
The MEBA employees do not.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
MEBA doesn't?
MR. HAYDEN:
No.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Are they then under social security instead?
MR. HAYDEN:
Well, they have their own retirement system and I'm not sure
what that package is under MEBA but we do not pay into social
security for them, nor do we pay into SBS.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Do you have available some of the amounts of money that the
employees have in these SBS accounts?
MR. HAYDEN:
No, I didn't bring that with me. I'd be happy to supply that
to the committee.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: ....
what some of these accounts are up to now -- these SBS
accounts?
MR. HAYDEN:
I've never looked at what those accounts are running.
MS. DOYLE:
I would imagine it could be gotten at some point. I don't
know that there's a standard report run.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Could you get that information to us -- we don't need to know
their names certainly, but what some of the highest accounts are
running.
MR. HAYDEN:
Sure.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Because these are personal accounts that when they retire from
the system they take out, correct? It's a secondary pension fund,
but it's in lieu of social security.
MR. HAYDEN:
That's correct. However, we....
Number 478
REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON:
Thank you, Senator. I guess the question that's a logical
question to follow the question by the Chair is: Would you expect
that those SBS accounts would be any larger for an IBU employee
than they would be for a general government employee?
MR. HAYDEN:
No, I wouldn't expect those accounts to be any different than
shore side people.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Well, that's set into statute I believe, isn't it? It's 6.18
percent the employer contributes, the employee contributes 6.18
percent - 13.36 percent....
MS. DOYLE:
And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, after a certain a point,
you can no longer contribute, is that correct? So after you pass
that ceiling, you don't continue to add money to that.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
What is the ceiling, Janet?
MS. PARKER: $62,600 I believe, for this year.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Senator Taylor has joined us. Representative Williams and
Speaker Phillips are here. Senator Taylor.
Number 487
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR:
Gary, the problem I find with the study that is being touted
as a viable comparison is that many of the people, as I understand
it, that operate both the Washington State ferries - I know that
all of their people are day people and the people that operate the
Canadian ferries - almost all of them I think are also day people.
They go home each night, sleep in their own bed, get to go to their
kid's graduation -- I mean, our people don't do that. All of our
people on all of our ferries are on there for a full week - 24
hours a day. And so a proper comparison would probably be with the
tugboat fleet or the merchant mariner fleet where you're gone for
an extended period of time, especially those people working up in
the up to westward -- I've had calls from some of those people who
haven't been off a boat in six months. So, I mean there's quite
a significant difference between the pay scale you're going to have
to pay to take somebody away from their home for an extended period
or the pay scale you'll have to give to somebody that goes home
everyday after a 10-hour shift.
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator, you're absolutely correct. These are 24-hour, 7-day
a week jobs and as you pointed out, some of the lengths of voyages
in the Southwest are for multiple months. So yes, there's a
difference and in those respects the state of Washington ferry
fleet is not a comparable measure. However, I'm not familiar with
how this study was done.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay. The Chair recognizes Representative Robinson is also in
attendance. Robin, did you have another question?
SENATOR TAYLOR:
No, thank you. I just wanted to make that point.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Any further questions? Representative Kott.
Number 502
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, I want to go back to the
compensation -- primarily looking at again the annual leave,
vacation leave, as well as sick leave. Now you ran the numbers and
I want to use just five weeks or above and multiply and the number
I come up with is 420 hours of annual leave and 180 hours of sick
leave and if we use the standard 8-hour work day, that amounts to
10 weeks in one and 4 1/2 weeks in the other for a total of about
15 weeks of annual/sick leave, if we were using an 8-hour day. And
I understand we are not, in some cases. But my question really is:
If these are hourly employees, or paid by the hour, is the option
to sell leave available to those employees as we currently have in
other settings?
MR. HAYDEN:
Is the option to sell leave? You mean cash in leave?
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Cash it in.
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes, I believe they can cash in up to 10 days annual leave....
MS. DOYLE:
I believe 84 hours for employees who have been with the system
for 10 years or longer, if I'm not mistaken.
MR. HAYDEN:
So, there's a limit on that just like there is on shore side.
However, I would point out that these are not 8-hour leave days;
these are 12-hour leave days. For a week, you have to take leave
for 84 hours to be off for a week. You don't take leave for 8
hours and then come back to work. When you put in for leave, you
put in for leave for 84 hours.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Yes, I understand that.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, in the union contracts that are before the legislature
(indisc.) 1.5 percent increase in funding, how much is that
directly to the Alaska State ferry system? What is the cost of the
union contract increase to the state ferry system that are
currently being considered by the legislature?
MR. HAYDEN:
The package that was negotiated last summer would cost $1.3
million for `96 and `97 - the total of the two. The `96 costs were
- the lump sum payments, I think was about $800,000 and then
$470,000 for the `97; 1.4 was the actual number that came out
instead of 1.5. It was one - one-half of the CPI; the CPI turned
out to be less so.... But those two numbers is $1.3 million.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
What about -- how was COLD calculated which is the cost of
living differential.
MR. HAYDEN:
The cost of living differential is calculated based on a
percent that varies by contract, but on the average the number runs
from 18 to 22 percent. It does vary by position....
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Eighteen to twenty-two percent of what?
MR. HAYDEN:
Eighteen to twenty-two percent above the base wage.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
These wage figures that you gave us that range from $35,000 to
$110,000, does that include the cost of living?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes, it does.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Representative Elton.
Number 534
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON:
Gary, while somebody is here from the Department of
Administration, I don't know if you have an answer but I know that
the Department of Administration has done cost comparable across
different professional tiers. Have you ever done that with a
master, for example, from the ferry system that might be making
$99,000 and somebody with equal professional responsibilities. In
fact, I understand that some of the masters are also qualified as
marine pilots. My understanding is that marine pilots can make
over $100,000 a year, also. Have you done that kind of comparison
that compares what a master could get outside of the Marine Highway
System?
MS. DOYLE:
Officially? No, we haven't done that. As you mentioned
correctly, marine pilots do make quite a considerable sum of money
on the cruise ships; they're private contractors and they're paid -
- I don't know what benefits they may or may not accrue during that
period of time.
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON:
If I could follow up, Mr. Chair. I mean I think that kind of
information would be very important. I'd like to know what a
master who leaves the "Mat" can make if they get off the boat in
Ketchikan and retire from the system and become a marine pilot. I
think we need to understand what other market forces are out there
tugging at these people.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Do you get many applications Gary, to work for the Alaska
Marine Highway System?
MR. HAYDEN:
I have personally received in the deck department, two to
three in the last year for entry-level positions in the deck
department for Alaska residents who want to work up through the
system.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Do you have any trouble filling any positions on the Alaska
State ferry System?
MR. HAYDEN:
We've had some difficulty in finding people who are in the
unlicensed department, working in the engine room who have the Z-
Card certificate for oiler and wiper. So yes, we've been short
some of those positions, but when you get above - get out of that
job class, we probably have not had difficulty in filling
positions.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Is there a large turnover? Is it an abnormally large turnover
compared to the other state....
MR. HAYDEN:
No, I would say the average longevity is in the order of
magnitude of 10 years at least within the fleet. So there's not a
high turnover rate. I don't know -- I haven't compared that to
shore side - other state employees, I don't know what that rate is,
but it's about 10 years.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Senator Taylor.
SENATOR TAYLOR:
Yes, thank you. I'm not a member of this committee, but I
really appreciate Senator Kelly being kind enough to let me sit in
and thank you very much, Co-Chairman Kott. I want to get back to
the point that was raised earlier about COLD or cost of living
differential and how that differential was achieved because I think
most of the members are not aware of that. At one point in time,
it's my understanding your department entered into an agreement,
administratively, to establish a differential in pay between
Alaskan workers and those outside of our geographical boundaries in
the state of Washington because we had a lot of people - I think
now it's down to 20 people out of the state of Washington that
actually work on the system. But in doing that, where other
departments across the board were granted a bonus so to speak in
that year and got a cost of living differential -- say if you
worked in Fairbanks or Nome or Bethel, you got a cost of living
differential; where in our workers, they got their normal raises
over a given period of years and when the disparity between
Washington base wage which was frozen, and the Alaskan wage where
it had normally grown to, then all parties moved the same going up
the ladder. In other words, a 3 percent pay increase at this point
would raise the Washington base 3 percent and it would raise the
Alaskan 3 percent. So, as to characterize this as a cost of living
differential and then factor it off the Washington base is not
accurate as it relates to other departments. In fact, our people
each achieved those wage increases over time and Washington was
froze and only began to move when there had been...
TAPE 96-44, SIDE B
Number 998
SENATOR TAYLOR:
....a sufficient differential created. That's significantly
different than getting a bonus on your paycheck because you're
working in Fairbanks and every year you get that bonus.
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator, you're correct. There are several differences
between these contracts and shore side contracts. It's my
understanding that over time when the employees received a
percentage increase that some of that percent went to make up the
difference in the spread between the cost of living differential
between out-of-state and in-state employees. So, it didn't
necessarily reflect across the board pay raises for everyone. The
other thing is these employees do not receive merit increases. So
those are two significant things that have varied these three
unions and how they're different than shore side.
Number 974
SENATOR TAYLOR:
That's just the only point I wanted to make was that there was
a significant difference in how these -- I'm just as frustrated by
the way as the rest of these members I believe are, with a lot of
the foolish gestures and rhetoric that have gone on in the last few
days. I think there was a better way to have handled it and I'm
not at all pleased with that. But I don't want to see this as an
opportunity to start distorting things as it relates to those
people that are employed in my district that I am concerned about.
I don't want to see them take the brunt of the actions of a very
few. So that's why I wanted to make those comments. I think
there's significant difference here; these are people working long
hours and away from their families -- this isn't some guy that's
running a road grader in Fairbanks that also is available for merit
pay every single year and has been for the last 15. I think the
ferry workers across the board would have given up any pay raises
if they just could have had merit pay; their pay today would be
quite a bit higher than it is based on any raises we've given
anybody.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary.
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator - Mr. Chairman. I think one thing that's very
important to point out that's facing all of us today is these
agreements that we're talking about were negotiated and signed off
on in 1994. We have been through this process several times and I
can understand the frustration on people's parts when they have
negotiated at the table in good faith and contracts have not been
followed through on. This contract was negotiated in `94. Last
summer, we spent a lot of hard work working with the unions trying
to negotiate a different salary scale. The only thing we were
talking about last summer was salary scale because the contract
that's in effect and has been in effect since October 10, 1994, --
the only thing we talked about last year was the percent of the pay
increase. And that number came down - the unions gave up what they
had previously negotiated in good faith. So the number that's in
front of you today - 1.3 - is considerably lower than the number
that had previously been brought in front of you the year before.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, how many vessels do we have in the Marine Highway
System?
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator, we have eight vessels. We have one under
construction.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
And how many communities do they serve?
MR. HAYDEN:
They serve 32 communities and those 32 communities have a
population of 110,000 people. So we serve approximately 20 percent
of the state's population.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
You serve about 20 percent of the state's population. That
means you don't serve 80 percent, correct?
MR. HAYDEN:
Well sir, that's a misnomer because the Marine Highway System
and being a transportation link, contributes to the economy
statewide and I have brought with me an Economic Impact Analysis of
the Marine Highway System, not only in the Southeast and the
Southwest, but also statewide that I'd be happy to go over with you
as a committee. But the state invests on an annual basis
approximately $28 million in general fund subsidy to the Marine
Highway System and in exchange for that, the local economists we
hired last year to study the situation, said the state received a
return of $171,000 in direct and indirect spending....
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Did you mean $171 million?
MR. HAYDEN:
Excuse me, yes sir, $171 million for the $28 million invested.
So the system is linked to Southcentral - it's linked to the
economy there; it's linked to the western states -- much of the
bait fish that's caught in Southeast gets transported on the Marine
Highway System and is used in the Bristol Bay area or up in the
western part of the state. There are definite links between
Southeast and the rest of the state and the Marine Highway System
is one of those important transportation links.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Representative Porter.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER:
Thank you. I guess that kind of economic development
(indisc.) drives the question on the cost of living differential.
It would be hard for me to believe that the cost of living
differential, which I think you said averaged between 16 and 24
percent....
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
Eighteen.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER:
Eighteen and twenty-four percent and obviously there's not an
18 to 24 percent cost of living difference between Seattle and
Juneau. Is it to induce employees to live in Alaska and have the
economic benefit of their residency or what is the intent?
MR. HAYDEN:
Senator - Representative Porter, at the time that the COLD was
introduced, it's my understanding that the cost of living
differential was higher than the 22 - I think the numbers used to
run as high as 30 percent. So over time, economic conditions have
changed. What is the number today? I don't know. I don't believe
that the state's done a comprehensive analysis as to what that cost
of living differential is. I don't think that we can sit here and
pull out a good statistical analysis of what those costs are. I
think intuitively we know the cost has come down and the spread and
the gap between the two have changed.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
One thing first. Gary, how many employees do we have at the
Marine Highway System?
MR. HAYDEN:
There are approximately 718 vessel employees of which 666 are
Alaska residents and about 51 are nonresidents.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
And what's the total cost to operate the ferry system on an
annual basis?
MR. HAYDEN:
Approximately -- this coming year we will expend approximately
$70 million.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
And of that $70 million, you're subsidized by the state
general fund of $28 million?
MR. HAYDEN:
That's correct and we bring in revenues from our sales of the
other $40 million plus.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Representative Elton.
Number 938
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON:
Thanks, Senator. I just wanted to say I'm a little bit
uncomfortable with the question that Representative Porter was
asking, because the way I understand it is the way the cost of
living differential occurred was Alaskans didn't get bonuses, but
the Washington State and other outside people were frozen and they
didn't get the normal accrual of benefits over a certain period of
time until you got to that 18 to 22 percent differential. I'm not
so sure I'm anxious to look into whether or not that's correct or
not because if the cost of living differential is now 10 percent,
I think the fair of way of getting to that would be to raise
Washington rather than cutting Alaskans. And that could open up
kind of a dangerous territory.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Representative Rokeberg.
Number 931
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
Mr. Chairman - Gary, I'm kind of disturbed about this whole
thing because I'm trying to understand the exact base. Are you
suggesting, as I hear Representative Elton suggesting, that our
base salary level is based on the Washington State ferry system or
what's going on here? If we're going to be asking to raise the
Washington State ferry system's wages, does that mean that our wage
schedule is based on that? And in addition I'd also like to ask if
the COLD calculation is a bargainable point or unless it's
empirically based on some kind of a third party type statistical
analysis or is it merely something that is bargained for at the
table?
MR. HAYDEN:
To clarify, I don't believe Representative Elton nor myself
were suggesting that COLD was set by the state of Washington ferry
workers. COLD is a cost of living differential between Alaska and
outside - they used the state of Washington as the base. It's a
different factor in that it's separating resident versus
nonresident. There are 51 nonresidents; those people make less
than Alaskans do because under the terms of the contract, as
expected, their cost of living is less than the Alaska residents.
Therefore, they receive less. Is it a negotiated item? Yes, it is
a negotiated item and we have entered into, very preliminary, we've
had our first round of negotiations with MEBA and not to get into
the negotiation process, but one of the things we're talking about
with them is lowering that rate and spreading that money and using
it in different other ways. So yes, we are looking at the
contracts that are coming up, doing something with COLD. I should
point out to you that of the three contracts, we have two of them
in effect - the third contract from MEBA expires in October and
we'll be negotiating a new contract with them over the next several
months.
Number 908
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
Mr. Chairman, on a follow up. In reviewing the executive
summary on the OMB report, it looks like there was a significant
differential for the MV Bartlett and the Southwest employees and
the Tustemena and the Southeastern employees. Is that differential
still in effect and what was the explanation for it?
MR. HAYDEN:
Yes, that differential is still in effect and those contracts
are different -- the Southwest and the Southeast are different --
different -- almost different contracts within contracts. I'm not
real familiar with the history as to how we got to that point, but
it's my understanding that the cost of living was different in
Southeast than it was in Southcentral and the working conditions in
Southwest were different than they were in Southeast, the licensing
that people had to have on the Tustemena as an ocean-going vessel
which is different than an inland waters vessel - they're managed
separately.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay Gary, we're running out of time. We have to give up the
committee room here. Did the committee have any further questions?
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
I've got one. Gary, were you involved in the contract
negotiations, since we have kind of ventured into this area?
MR. HAYDEN:
Over the 1 l/2 percent, yes I was.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
If my numbers are correct, the IBU had a 3.3 percent increase
in 1990; a 5 percent increase in 1991; and it looks like in 1992,
a 3.6 percent increase; I don't think there's been any increases
since 1992. The Masters, Mates and Pilots union had an increase of
5.6 percent in 1991; 3.6 in `92; `93 there was no increase; `94
there was a 4.4 percent; and last year there was no increase. I
guess my question to you is, how do we sell the public any kind of
an increase -- and I really appreciate you keeping the percentages
to an absolute minimum -- but how do we sell the public an increase
in wages when other areas, especially in the private sector we've
seen retrenchment, just cutbacks, reduction in pay and what not.
MR. HAYDEN:
Mr. Chairman....
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
I'm -- it's a tough question I understand.
MR. HAYDEN:
It's a difficult question to answer, but I believe that all of
us have seen a rise in the cost of living each day. We have
gasoline prices going up - I know I look at my property assessment,
and my assessments are going up, the cost of living for the whole
United States - our economy as it keeps up, it costs us more to
live and to work. I believe that that in itself is maybe an over-
simplification of an answer, but people have worked very hard -
we've negotiated a contract; we had to have -- we attempted to have
cost savings within this contract and that's what brings us to this
point today as to whether or not we're going to honor the
collective bargaining process and move forward. For the Marine
Highway System, it's been a very difficult time for labor and
management working through these issues which not necessarily were
all of our own making from a management standpoint.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, were the union negotiators and members aware that those
contracts didn't go into existence unless it was funded by the
legislature. Was there an awareness factor there that they're not
final until funded?
MR. HAYDEN:
That's correct. We were very conscious of what happened last
year; we wrote specific language into this contract that said if
the legislature did not appropriate the money for this contract, we
would sit down again for 10 days and negotiate in good faith to see
if we could reach an agreement, at which time we would waive our
right and the union could declare an impasse if they chose to and
go have their strike vote as to what to do.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Any further questions from the committee?
Number 866
REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK:
Mr. Chairman, what I'd like to know is what is the total
amount of the -- or the total number of workers that we have
employed on the ferries - the eight different ferries.
MR. HAYDEN:
Seven hundred and eighteen.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK:
And of those 718, how many is seasonal workers?
MR. HAYDEN:
Seasonal workers? They're all -- each one of these workers -
we receive workers out of the union hall - as we have a ship
running, we call up the union or we dispatch them ourselves for
IBU, the other two unions, they dispatch out of the union hall.
The number of workers and whether or not a person works depends on
seniority and it depends on the availability of a job. The
availability of a job depends a whole lot on what ships we have
running. In the winter time, we may only have three to four of the
vessels running at any one time which cuts down everyone's
opportunity to work so only the most senior people are working;
they don't necessarily have a year-round job - only until they get
to a certain level within the seniority system. So, there aren't
designated seasonal jobs; they're jobs that we hire that we may not
have people who have seniority to fill the entry level jobs when we
have all the vessels running because people are coming and going.
However, after they've worked there and built up their seniority,
they have the opportunity to have a year-round job. So to some
degree, they're all seasonal jobs up until they get the seniority
to work all year-round when we lower the work opportunities.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK:
Mr. Chairman. And how many -- how many personnel does it take
to operate a vessel? What is the total number of people?
MR. HAYDEN:
The crew members on the Malaspina yesterday was 47; it goes as
high as the Columbia with 66. The vessels vary in size from 235
feet up to 408 feet. Different complicated systems on each one of
them; therefore, there's different manning levels. The Coast Guard
certificate even sets different manning levels depending on the
ship.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Senator Torgerson.
Number 840
SENATOR TORGERSON:
Gary, in case of an impasse or a strike or whatever might
happen, what are your plans as far as operating the system. Will
you leave the boats tied up or do you have standby crews or what is
plan B.
MR. HAYDEN:
If the legislature chooses not to fund these contracts, we
will go sit down with the union, see if we can get them to agree to
work without a pay raise. If they choose to say no and declare an
impasse, they have a strike vote, I would predict by mid-June we'll
be shut down. We do not have a plan B to keep running the boats
using a different set of employees. We believe that we should
honor the collective bargaining process and honor these agreements.
We're not interesting in busting these unions and having people
lose their job because in effect, if we went to another outside of
Alaska, either union or a recruitment agency - I could do that. I
could go find people to mann these ships, but in the process
there'd be 667 Alaskans that would probably be out of work.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, we're going to have to wrap up. Any further questions?
Number 829
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG:
Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to request the department if they
could provide a follow up letter on the rationale and basis for the
cost of living differential and their bargaining position, just
more or less restate what you did, and also some background without
being too voluminous about the MV Bartlett differential and that
differential between the Southwest and the Southeastern part of the
state and the rationale behind that.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, Gary?
Number 818
MS. DOYLE:
If I may just very briefly....
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Would you state your name for the record, please.
MS. DOYLE:
Yes, Mia Doyle from the Department of Administration. I'm in
the Labor Relations Section and I was the chief spokesperson for
most of the contracts we're talking about. A statement was made
earlier that the MMP received a 4.4 percent increase in 1994; that
increase applied to two or three people and it was to bring them up
to another wage level because of the size of the ship. It would be
a mistake for people to believe that there was a general wage
increase that year. There simply was not.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Thank you for that clarification.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Gary, any further comments?
MR. HAYDEN:
No, Mr. Chairman. I believe that as far as the incident that
we had yesterday, I find it to be unfortunate. The Administration
is going to be fair, we're going to be firm and we're looking
forward to having a very productive summer on the Alaska Marine
Highway System and carrying 400,000 people this coming year. And
we'd like to keep them running.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, thank you very much.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
One last comment. Gary, when will that investigation be
complete?
MR. HAYDEN:
Well, we're interviewing people today and tomorrow, so I would
hope within a week....
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT:
Would you provide my office with a copy of the preliminary.
CHAIRMAN KELLY:
Okay, meeting adjourned at 3:15 p.m.
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